Comments: Marriage equality soon?

I am proud that the Provost of the church I attend is quoted in this article - I find it heart warming to know I am part of a lively congregation supporting such moves.

Posted by Rosemary Hannah at Friday, 23 July 2010 at 6:01pm BST

Excellent news ! Life gets more and more catholic now, ever and on into the Future.

Just reading Gilead-- well worth it and bang up to date and -- yes on into the future

Posted by Pantycelyn at Friday, 23 July 2010 at 6:08pm BST

Such hypocrisy and ignorance that a Catholic bishop would state such an opinion: "Not now and not ever" is just the tip of the dysfunctional iceberg that is the Latin Rite Church and many fundamentalist and reactionary Christian churches. This is why they have lost not only their authority but also their respect from the average human being who is tired of such hypocrisy and backward thinking. Same sex marriage will soon be recognized by most Christian churches but the Latin Rite Church will be the last to treat gay people and women with such respect and equality. They do so at their own peril because the Church of Rome is about to implode.

Posted by Chris Smith at Friday, 23 July 2010 at 6:28pm BST

No problem with the bishop announcing that they don't want to celebrate them. As long as they don't try to stop others who do wish to do so. That's how modern democracies work.

Posted by Dennis at Friday, 23 July 2010 at 8:04pm BST

"The [Roman] Catholic Church will never celebrate same-sex unions – “not now, not in the future, not ever”: Bishop of Paisley, Philip Tartaglia"

Americans (U.S.) will be reminded of the (late) Governor of Alabama, George Wallace: "Segregation now, Segregation tomorrow, Segregation forever!"

...but he was WRONG and (just as important) *changed his mind*.

I have faith in the Holy Spirit working similar miracles (in God's Time!) . . . even in the RCC! :-)

Posted by JCF at Friday, 23 July 2010 at 8:59pm BST

I must say it again. While I am proud of the progress which has been made by TEC, I am saddened by the fact that it is situated in a country which is so unenlightened. When will we in the USA catch up with Western Europe (and also much of Latin America)?

Posted by Old Father William at Friday, 23 July 2010 at 11:49pm BST

But Governor Wallace didn't have the promises to Peter of indefectibility and racism is founded on the evil of a fallen humanity.

Posted by Robert Ian Williams at Saturday, 24 July 2010 at 6:01am BST

I'm sure your new found allegiance affords you great comfort Robert, but a substantial part of Christendom doesnt accept the parallelism Peter-pope for all sorts of reasons, theological and historical...and never will. To be frank it is becoming something of a problem for a lot of Roman Catholics

Posted by Perry Butler at Saturday, 24 July 2010 at 8:33am BST

RIW: "racism is founded on the evil of a fallen humanity".... whereas the historic persecution of society's gay minority wasn't, then?

Remember that Britain was executing people merely on account of their homosexuality until the 19th c, and imprisoning them thereafter, up until our own lifetimes. Was that not part of the evil of a fallen humanity?

Posted by Fr Mark at Saturday, 24 July 2010 at 10:28am BST

I would agree that the temporal punishment placed on active homosexuals was appalling. However Britain was executing sheep stealers and deporting to Australia for trivial offences as well etc. look at the dreadful punishment Oscar Wilde received, but he did become a Catholic on his death bed.

Posted by Robert Ian Williams at Saturday, 24 July 2010 at 2:06pm BST

RIW: "look at the dreadful punishment Oscar Wilde received, but he did become a Catholic on his death bed"

Oh that's alright, then.

Posted by Fr Mark at Saturday, 24 July 2010 at 5:20pm BST

While I need hardly add anything, RIW, I would point out that then-Gov. Wallace and countless others---who we NOW all see as *racists*---had their religious justifications for their positions, too.

I know you (and I, for that matter) care nothing for being on "the wrong side of history", but the time is SOON coming, when the RCC's homophobia will be seen by everyone (illumined by the Holy Spirit) as being on the WRONG side of Christ's Gospel.

If I preach repentence, it's only to minimize the shame that's coming (but please pray also for me, a sinner).

Posted by JCF at Saturday, 24 July 2010 at 6:50pm BST

Yes, the Petrine "ministry" is a very explosive issue in contemporary Catholicism. It is coming under more scrutiny than ever as a result of two reactionary Popes (John Paul II and Benedict) who have made it their life's cause to "restore" Catholicism to the pre-Vatican II era. It's not going to work nor is it going to happen. The treatment of women and the glbt community by Ratzinger and his minions will bite them in the end. Their views on same sex marriage as well as the ordination of women to the priesthood and episcopacy, along with optional celibacy for the clerical state, are hot button issues with a lighted fuse. There is always the possibility that a progressive thinker could be the next Pope and this terrifies the reactionary elements in the Latin Rite Churches. If in fact, this does happen, all of those Anglicans that have come to Rome for shelter, will most likely have to start looking for the "true" Church again. Although people who think like Robert Ian Williams have held the power levers in Rome since the autumn of 1978, there is such growing dissent about the restorationist movement within the world-wide Church that the time for radical reform of the Papacy may not be far away. Triumphalism just does not work in a world that is starving and without hope. Top down hierarchy as "teachers" is also under great scrutiny because they have lost both authority and respect as a result of the child sexual abuse crisis and their backward thinking. The times are ripe for radical reform of the Latin Rite Church. Either it reforms or it dies. The biggest complaint: The lifestyles of the elite hierarchy does not remotely mirror the humble and poor Jesus.

Posted by Chris Smith at Saturday, 24 July 2010 at 7:01pm BST

The latest news has two double-thick chocolatey layers of sheer yummy goodness potential. Firstly, faith communities who wish to celebrate equal marriage are free to do so, without interference from meddling state powers. This must be vitamin good over the long run for the committed queer couples involved, and for all their friend and family who are also involved in their lives.

Secondly, as this happens, we get a free public test in full view of the entirely horrid and dire claims that the Roman Catholic hierarchy is currently publishing far and wide - rather in keeping with the horrid and dire claims USA-type rightwing evangelical-fundamentalist believers are also busy preaching.

Nothing like a free public test of flat earth ideas, preached as brute revelation that simply cannot fail to be true.

Free. Public. Test.

Okay, then, bring on the double-thick layers, all chock full of chocolatey possibilities. Let's us have a slice or two?

Posted by drdanfee at Saturday, 24 July 2010 at 9:54pm BST

Just as I'm reminded of George Wallace's 1963 "segregation forever" inaugural address (I was born in Alabama, btw), I'm also reminded of Martin Luther King's 1965 speech in front of the Alabama State Capitol in which he said, "segregation is on its death bed in Alabama, and the only thing uncertain about it is how costly Wallace and the segregationists will make the funeral." I wonder how costly the Roman Catholic Church and the Fundagelical Talibanglicans (read: Nigeria, Uganda, and their accomplices in the US, UK, and elsewhere) will make the funeral of homophobia.

Posted by Kevin Montgomery at Sunday, 25 July 2010 at 4:36am BST

The Catholic Church is against homophobia and unjust discrimination against homosexuals, but her Divine mandate precludes compromise in areas that are revealed truth. I feel really sorry for Chris Smith, and his flawed analysis.The truth of the matter lies in the Petrine texts, which are to me greater proofs of Christ than the resurrection.

Unless the Lord builds the house those that labour do so in vain.

As an aside the sad fact of segregation still haunts America in a more subtle way. the blatant signs have gone but there is still plenty of segregation. Sunday is the most segregated day in America.

Posted by Robert Ian Williams at Sunday, 25 July 2010 at 7:28pm BST

Re. RIW "The truth of the matter lies in the Petrine texts, which are to me greater proofs of Christ than the resurrection."

Even the most orthodox Roman Catholic would grimace at this kind of confusion. Review the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the section on Article 5, Paragraph 2 (He Rose from the dead) Section III (The meaning and Saving Significance of the Resurrection) paragraphs 651 through 658. Also, note the view of Karl Rahner "According to the New Testament understanding of the resurrection of Jesus, his resurrection is distinguished from ours by the fact that by his resurrection Jesus was made 'Lord' and 'Messiah'. " [Karl Rahner Foundations of Christian Faith. trans. by W.V. Dych. The Seabury Press, 1978, p. 278] If you wish to dialogue with Anglicans about our traditions and internal issues, using your own as normative and decisive, at least do us the favor of researching and correctly articulating your own traditions first. Next you will be quoting the false decretals.

Posted by Rod Gillis at Sunday, 25 July 2010 at 10:06pm BST


Are you suggesting that the revelation of truth is over? That the Spirit stopped revealing its truth to the world when the canonical Bible (at least as the RC church views it) was edited and constructed?

Posted by Pat O'Neill at Sunday, 25 July 2010 at 10:58pm BST

"The truth of the matter lies in the Petrine texts, which are to me greater proofs of Christ than the resurrection."

Wow. Speechless.

Posted by JCF at Monday, 26 July 2010 at 1:30am BST

RIW: "the Petrine texts, which are to me greater proofs of Christ than the resurrection"

I am gobsmacked.

Reallly, Robert? The papacy is a more important prrof of Christ than his resurrection? The pretensions of the Bishop of Rome outweight the defeat of death?

No wonder Rome is in such a mess.

Posted by Malcolm+ at Monday, 26 July 2010 at 1:52am BST

If the Catholic Church is truly against homophobia and unjust discrimination against homosexuals they have done just about everything to prove otherwise. Robert Ian Williams comments in this thread about "her Divine mandate" ring truly hollow and superficial. Let's get real here, Mr. Williams. Spare me your false sorrow and condemnation of my "flawed analysis". It's about as honest and sincere as the myth of the various theories about the so called "Petrine Ministry", which to many Vatican II scholars can represent a variety of interpretations. Perhaps a symbol of "unity" but the so called "unity" theory has also been used most recently to disenfranchise and marginalize those who may see Christ's ministry as all inclusive: (i.e. women's ordination to priesthood and episcopate and glbt access to all ordained ministries in the Church) so even that premise needs re-examination. Radical reform of the hierarchy is necessary. They have taken on an imperial model which does not reflect Christ's love or compassion, yet alone His humility. The move to "restore" the Latin Rite Church to the "golden era prior to Vatican II" is a failed and dysfunctional model that will only expedite the implosion of the old model. You seem to be searching for this so called golden era. It never really existed Mr. Williams and the current crop of prelates at the Vatican are waiting for a train that has long ago left the station. I am a Vatican II Catholic and as far as I can see, the role model that best represents a bishop or shepherd of the Church is that of the Presiding Bishop of the American Episcopal Church. In fact the American Episcopal Church to me most closely models the spirit of what the Council Fathers imagined the Church in the modern world to look like. Imperial or triumphalist Catholicism is the opposite model of the Second Vatican Council. You are trying to rewrite history. It will not work.

Posted by Chris Smith at Monday, 26 July 2010 at 3:39am BST

Chris, I feel you have hi-jacked Vatican Two. I believe that I am in continuity with that Council.
Vatican two affirms the magisterium unequivocally, and is in perfect conformity will all other Church Councils. I feel it is you that is living the fantasy, if you feel the Catholic Church is going to evolve into the Episcopal Church. How disappointed and frustrated you are going to be.

Posted by Robert Ian Williams at Wednesday, 28 July 2010 at 8:51pm BST

Please, let's focus on the issue of "marriage equality" and not on RCC internal disputes.

Posted by Simon Sarmiento at Wednesday, 28 July 2010 at 10:22pm BST
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